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Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-13-2016, 09:54 PM #1
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL
03-13-2016, 10:26 PM #2
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,478 Threads:1,442 Joined:Feb 2011
Gnosticism is very interesting.
I've been reading at the The Nag Hammadi Library Fascinating.

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03-14-2016, 08:00 AM #3
Jim Rat Member
Posts:144 Threads:1 Joined:Feb 2016
I don't know what Islam teaches, so I can't respond to that. But most Christians' Belief System (BS) certainly does not include having to "work to gain salvation." Salvation (whatever that means) is a free gift by the Grace of God. You don't have to "be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death" all that has been taken care of. You just have to accept it. (BTW, you can't have ETERNAL anything if it's followed by something else.) If that's what Gnostics believe - they're welcome to their own BS but I prefer my BS.

I would be interested in seeing how you define "Universalism." My BS is not that everyone WILL be saved but that everyone CAN be saved. Whatever "saved" means. Also interested in what you think "hell" is. Jesus taught it, so it's hard to deny it...

As for your final question. Calling the doctrine an "evil lie" is an emotional phrase. You should probably choose one more precise. If Salvation is another word for reconciliation, then I agree that it was taught by Christ, and was not a "lie" by anyone.

Waiting breathlessly for your answer..
03-14-2016, 01:13 PM #4
Kreeper Griobhtha
Posts:10,814 Threads:651 Joined:Feb 2011
(03-13-2016, 09:54 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL

In short, yes. Even more of an evil creation is the hell you are supposedly being saved from.

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to poor
03-14-2016, 05:49 PM #5
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,478 Threads:1,442 Joined:Feb 2011
It's about as convoluted FUBAR as you can get. Spirituality is not learned from a book, or a religion.

wonder.gif
03-14-2016, 06:20 PM #6
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:43,237 Threads:1,478 Joined:Feb 2011
I agree
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 06:35 PM #7
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-13-2016, 10:26 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  Gnosticism is very interesting.
I've been reading at the The Nag Hammadi Library Fascinating.

I find it a refreshing theology/philosophy without having to lose my firm hold of reality and not having to go into a real belief in fantasy.

Be careful to not mix what we believe with what our myth show. They were written more to put against the Christian myth than anything else. They are only a tool to guide you into your own head.

I have a quick blurb on what I think it is all about. I hope you have some time for it.

I am a Gnostic Christian, yes, but our beliefs are not what Christianity says they are. We lost the God wars and they distorted our belief system. The lies have been known since the findings of our scriptures and myths at Nag Hammadi.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

Gnostic Christianity is a teaching system from Jesus but not the one the church ever dares to teach. It frees us from religion and that is of course not what religions want. They never want the student to graduate as they might lose revenue and people.

Here is a bit of history as well as a nutshell version of how that freedom is gained.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define as the best laws and rules to live life with.

We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts. I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.


The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.


This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.


When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 06:44 PM #8
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-14-2016, 08:00 AM)Jim Rat Wrote:  I don't know what Islam teaches, so I can't respond to that. But most Christians' Belief System (BS) certainly does not include having to "work to gain salvation." Salvation (whatever that means) is a free gift by the Grace of God. You don't have to "be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death" all that has been taken care of. You just have to accept it. (BTW, you can't have ETERNAL anything if it's followed by something else.) If that's what Gnostics believe - they're welcome to their own BS but I prefer my BS.

I would be interested in seeing how you define "Universalism." My BS is not that everyone WILL be saved but that everyone CAN be saved. Whatever "saved" means. Also interested in what you think "hell" is. Jesus taught it, so it's hard to deny it...

As for your final question. Calling the doctrine an "evil lie" is an emotional phrase. You should probably choose one more precise. If Salvation is another word for reconciliation, then I agree that it was taught by Christ, and was not a "lie" by anyone.

Waiting breathlessly for your answer..

"You just have to accept it."

Indeed, but a moral person will reject it as immoral.

My bottom line on this issue.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

If you wish to ignore a whole lot of your bible, give an argument for your immoral act.



I also agree with Bishop Spong on hell.



There are many moral reasons why infinite torture or death are not a good justice in dealing with finite sins so if you wish to form an argument for your POV, I would be pleased to see it.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 06:46 PM #9
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-14-2016, 01:13 PM)Kreeper Wrote:  
(03-13-2016, 09:54 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation an obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivations in it's theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven. No hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner. Not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open out inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mind set which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and I to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions. Just not all of it.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL

In short, yes. Even more of an evil creation is the hell you are supposedly being saved from.

A moral man. Pleased to meet you.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 06:50 PM #10
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-14-2016, 05:49 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  It's about as convoluted FUBAR as you can get. Spirituality is not learned from a book, or a religion.

I agree and so do most who are not idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 06:53 PM #11
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-14-2016, 06:20 PM)Octo Wrote:  I agree

Not a bad count here.

We will see if Jim Rat is up for a debate or if he will just harden his heart and go with his dogma without doing what scriptures urge him to do.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Regards
DL
03-14-2016, 08:02 PM #12
Jim Rat Member
Posts:144 Threads:1 Joined:Feb 2016
(03-14-2016, 05:49 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  It's about as convoluted FUBAR as you can get. Spirituality is not learned from a book, or a religion.

I agree, too. But our definition of religion may be different.
Greatest I am Show this Post
03-14-2016, 09:24 PM #13
Greatest I am Incognito Anonymous
 
(03-14-2016, 08:02 PM)Jim Rat Wrote:  
(03-14-2016, 05:49 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  It's about as convoluted FUBAR as you can get. Spirituality is not learned from a book, or a religion.

I agree, too. But our definition of religion may be different.

That definition aside, is morality not the main thing that you look for from your religion?

Regards
DL
03-15-2016, 07:09 AM #14
Jim Rat Member
Posts:144 Threads:1 Joined:Feb 2016
(03-14-2016, 09:24 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  
(03-14-2016, 08:02 PM)Jim Rat Wrote:  
(03-14-2016, 05:49 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  It's about as convoluted FUBAR as you can get. Spirituality is not learned from a book, or a religion.

I agree, too. But our definition of religion may be different.

That definition aside, is morality not the main thing that you look for from your religion?

Regards
DL

I noticed you didn't answer the questions I asked. Instead, you pile on even more questions. I expected an exchange of ideas. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

BTW, Catholic, is that you?
03-15-2016, 08:49 AM #15
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,478 Threads:1,442 Joined:Feb 2011

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