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Russia Ukraine -Crimea War(Regular Updates)
03-02-2014, 03:58 PM #241
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
(03-02-2014, 03:41 PM)Octo Wrote:  On a personal level, yes I'd like to think so. As a people? It should be, but there's so much interference by other interests it's not easy to achieve unity in such a (in modern times) recently independent nation. dunno.gif

Good morning US.

Good morning Octo. It seems to me that for the most part, extreme radical violence is always required to make any sort of headway for change.
03-02-2014, 04:06 PM #242
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:42,612 Threads:1,469 Joined:Feb 2011
Not required I believe, but inevitable in most cases.

The velvet revolution is a beautiful exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution
03-02-2014, 04:11 PM #243
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
Quote:On November 17, 1989 (International Students' Day), riot police suppressed a student demonstration in Prague.[2] That event sparked a series of demonstrations from November 19 to late December. By November 20, the number of protesters assembled in Prague had grown from 200,000 the previous day to an estimated 500,000. A two-hour general strike involving all citizens of Czechoslovakia was held on November 27. On November 24, the entire top leadership of the Communist Party, including General Secretary Miloš Jakeš, resigned.

Ah, so I see; extremely large numbers = topple governments.
03-02-2014, 04:15 PM #244
mcmxc Member
Posts:95 Threads:0 Joined:Dec 2013
(03-02-2014, 03:55 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:43 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:29 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-01-2014, 05:15 PM)Shadow Wrote:  
(03-01-2014, 04:31 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  Beyond, notice how each side is asking the US/British and Russian super powers to step in? How far do we (US/Britian/Canada/European Union Countries) allow the Russian occupation and massacre and loss of freedoms of the citizens of the Ukraine to go? Sanctions only? It's plain to see, in my opinion, how the big wars are waged and, yes, Shadow, follow the money too.

Shouldn't that be the choice of Ukrainians? Don't they have enough debt without joining the EU?

Do we the people really have the power to make choices? blink.gif

Hey wait a minute, massacre? You should work for the BBC...

When did the Russian troops in Crimea start massacring? We see an eastern side appealing to Russia for help, and a western side appealing to the US.

It's okay to support your own nations side of things, but when people have a "good guys/winning side" mentality they often see things very lopsidedly. If you lived in the eastern hemisphere, you'd be wondering how long Putin and his allies were going to stand for the US interfering in their business. Neither side here can be called righteous, the US, UK and Russia should all be sanctioned heavily.

Yes, I agree, I should interpret and report the news as I see it.

Quote:"I signed an order and police have been given combat weapons, which will be used in accordance with the law," Zakharchenko said in a statement published on the ministry website. He urged protesters to hand in their weapons and opposition leaders to condemn radical actions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/fe...le-control

That's an article from the 20th feb recounting protesters clashing with Ukrainian police. That has nothing to do with the Russians at all. The Russian/Ukrainian massacre happened in 1941, but I don't count this as relevant whatsoever, since the idea is "let's hand Ukraine to the Germans" because of course they have NO history of massacre...

I just truly think people who can distinguish between the good and the bad guys in this scenario are being sensationalized. It was only last year Obama's plan backfired and Putin came out of the Syrian drama smelling of roses, he staunchly opposed any conflict, found a rational and viable way to dispose of the chemicals without any major conflict of nations. He even wrote a personal letter to the American people calling for rationality and critical thinking.

But he's still evil, and the west is much, much worse.
03-02-2014, 04:18 PM #245
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
(03-02-2014, 04:15 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:55 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:43 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:29 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-01-2014, 05:15 PM)Shadow Wrote:  Shouldn't that be the choice of Ukrainians? Don't they have enough debt without joining the EU?

Do we the people really have the power to make choices? blink.gif

Hey wait a minute, massacre? You should work for the BBC...

When did the Russian troops in Crimea start massacring? We see an eastern side appealing to Russia for help, and a western side appealing to the US.

It's okay to support your own nations side of things, but when people have a "good guys/winning side" mentality they often see things very lopsidedly. If you lived in the eastern hemisphere, you'd be wondering how long Putin and his allies were going to stand for the US interfering in their business. Neither side here can be called righteous, the US, UK and Russia should all be sanctioned heavily.

Yes, I agree, I should interpret and report the news as I see it.

Quote:"I signed an order and police have been given combat weapons, which will be used in accordance with the law," Zakharchenko said in a statement published on the ministry website. He urged protesters to hand in their weapons and opposition leaders to condemn radical actions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/fe...le-control

That's an article from the 20th feb recounting protesters clashing with Ukrainian police. That has nothing to do with the Russians at all. The Russian/Ukrainian massacre happened in 1941, but I don't count this as relevant whatsoever, since the idea is "let's hand Ukraine to the Germans" because of course they have NO history of massacre...

I just truly think people who can distinguish between the good and the bad guys in this scenario are being sensationalized. It was only last year Obama's plan backfired and Putin came out of the Syrian drama smelling of roses, he staunchly opposed any conflict, found a rational and viable way to dispose of the chemicals without any major conflict of nations. He even wrote a personal letter to the American people calling for rationality and critical thinking.

But he's still evil, and the west is much, much worse.

The way I see it, the PM in power at that time signed the order and sides with Russia, period. What it really has to do with is Russia protecting it's interests and the people have no say in the matter.
03-02-2014, 04:27 PM #246
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:42,612 Threads:1,469 Joined:Feb 2011
The majority of people on Crimea are Russians so I understand why they would side with Russia. The opposition is funded by the west so it looks like the usual setup for mega-conflict.
03-02-2014, 04:56 PM #247
Shadow Mrs. Buckwheat
Posts:12,782 Threads:1,182 Joined:Feb 2011
Ukraine Acting President Calls Emergency Meeting Of Security Chiefs; Russia Threatens To Cut Off The Gas

Quote:And while military escalation is now an official reality instead of merely YouTube clips of unidentified crap troops , Russia just sent another major warning shot across the bow when it issued several warnings on Saturday that Ukraine may lose a discount to the gas price it now pays to Gazprom due to Kiev's outstanding gas debt. Russia's state gas company Gazprom estimates Ukraine's outstanding gas debt at $1.55 billion for 2013 and gas deliveries so far this year. This of course, was Russia's trump card from the very beginning. Via Reuters:

"It seems that with such gas payments and fulfilment of its obligations Ukraine may not keep its current gas discount. The gas discount agreement assumed full and timely payment," Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov told Reuters.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-01...eatens-cut

Crimea river coffeetime.gif
03-02-2014, 05:02 PM #248
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:42,612 Threads:1,469 Joined:Feb 2011
(03-02-2014, 04:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:  Crimea river coffeetime.gif

lol.gif

Good morning Shadow hug.gif
03-02-2014, 05:03 PM #249
mcmxc Member
Posts:95 Threads:0 Joined:Dec 2013
(03-02-2014, 04:18 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 04:15 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:55 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:43 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  
(03-02-2014, 03:29 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  Do we the people really have the power to make choices? blink.gif

Hey wait a minute, massacre? You should work for the BBC...

When did the Russian troops in Crimea start massacring? We see an eastern side appealing to Russia for help, and a western side appealing to the US.

It's okay to support your own nations side of things, but when people have a "good guys/winning side" mentality they often see things very lopsidedly. If you lived in the eastern hemisphere, you'd be wondering how long Putin and his allies were going to stand for the US interfering in their business. Neither side here can be called righteous, the US, UK and Russia should all be sanctioned heavily.

Yes, I agree, I should interpret and report the news as I see it.

Quote:"I signed an order and police have been given combat weapons, which will be used in accordance with the law," Zakharchenko said in a statement published on the ministry website. He urged protesters to hand in their weapons and opposition leaders to condemn radical actions.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/fe...le-control

That's an article from the 20th feb recounting protesters clashing with Ukrainian police. That has nothing to do with the Russians at all. The Russian/Ukrainian massacre happened in 1941, but I don't count this as relevant whatsoever, since the idea is "let's hand Ukraine to the Germans" because of course they have NO history of massacre...

I just truly think people who can distinguish between the good and the bad guys in this scenario are being sensationalized. It was only last year Obama's plan backfired and Putin came out of the Syrian drama smelling of roses, he staunchly opposed any conflict, found a rational and viable way to dispose of the chemicals without any major conflict of nations. He even wrote a personal letter to the American people calling for rationality and critical thinking.

But he's still evil, and the west is much, much worse.

The way I see it, the PM in power at that time signed the order and sides with Russia, period. What it really has to do with is Russia protecting it's interests and the people have no say in the matter.

Of course, but you could say exactly the same of the Americans. They're worse in this situation because instead of protecting their own interests, they're actively trying to steal other nations interests. If we believe Russia are in the wrong, we cannot support US intervention because we'll be condoning something much much worse than what the Russians are currently trying to do. To side with either the US or Russia will end in exactly the same result, Ukrainians being manipulated.
03-02-2014, 05:08 PM #250
Shadow Mrs. Buckwheat
Posts:12,782 Threads:1,182 Joined:Feb 2011
(03-02-2014, 05:03 PM)mcmxc Wrote:  Of course, but you could say exactly the same of the Americans. They're worse in this situation because instead of protecting their own interests, they're actively trying to steal other nations interests. If we believe Russia are in the wrong, we cannot support US intervention because we'll be condoning something much much worse than what the Russians are currently trying to do. To side with either the US or Russia will end in exactly the same result, Ukrainians being manipulated.

Exactly.
03-02-2014, 05:11 PM #251
Shadow Mrs. Buckwheat
Posts:12,782 Threads:1,182 Joined:Feb 2011
(03-02-2014, 05:02 PM)Octo Wrote:  lol.gif

Good morning Shadow hug.gif

chuckle.gif Good morning Beautiful hug.gif
03-02-2014, 05:20 PM #252
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
Well, it's too late to secure those pipelines, or blow them up for that matter.
03-02-2014, 05:33 PM #253
Shadow Mrs. Buckwheat
Posts:12,782 Threads:1,182 Joined:Feb 2011
Russia holds all the cards in this, NATO has to back down. There'll be no war. Europe can't afford it. The US can't afford it. The IMF now controls Ukraine's private banks via EU loans which is what they were after. If Ukraine is forced into the Euro it will be a year or so before they go Egyptian.
03-02-2014, 05:54 PM #254
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,283 Threads:1,438 Joined:Feb 2011
Developing...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Crimea's parliament speaker: We will vote for granting <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Crimea&amp;src=hash">#Crimea</a> autonomous status LIVE FEED <a href="https://*.co/glBxiTOAry">https://*.co/glBxiTOAry</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23UKRAINE&amp;src=hash">#UKRAINE</a></p>&mdash; RT (@RT_com) <a href="https://twitter.com/RT_com/statuses/440081634591641600">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>

wonder.gif
03-02-2014, 06:06 PM #255
Shadow Mrs. Buckwheat
Posts:12,782 Threads:1,182 Joined:Feb 2011
(03-02-2014, 05:54 PM)JayRodney Wrote:  Developing...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Crimea's parliament speaker: We will vote for granting <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Crimea&amp;src=hash">#Crimea</a> autonomous status LIVE FEED <a href="https://*.co/glBxiTOAry">https://*.co/glBxiTOAry</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23UKRAINE&amp;src=hash">#UKRAINE</a></p>&mdash; RT (@RT_com) <a href="https://twitter.com/RT_com/statuses/440081634591641600">March 2, 2014</a></blockquote>

Good morning JR hug.gif

13.gif No way can Ukraine invade Crimea (as Georgia did S Ossetia) with a Russian presence there. Not without NATO backing and NATO's promises to Ukraine aren't worth the paper they're printed on. A predictable outcome would be a PR war. Crimea becomes autonomous and soon al queda is backing a revolution making the pro-Russian Crimeans look like fanatics which could jump start UN intervention.



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