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Taxes and Racketeering
03-13-2017, 08:19 PM #1
dclements Member
Posts:175 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
I'm wondering if someone can explain to me the difference between taxes and racketeering/'protection money'. I know that 'taxes' are supposedly collected by a government in order to pay for various actives it does in order 'help' and 'protect' it's citizens and does it with their general 'consent' as while as racketeering is more or less extortion done by criminals in order to get money so they don't have to obtain it through other means; but there seems to be a bit of a gray area where they overlap.

Both offer protection and sometimes even offer to do things to 'help' when in reality they mostly do things to help and protect themselves, the difference between who is a criminal or working for the government is merely an technically of who is charge and can do what they want to do, and governments often don't really do anything to get 'consent' when they choose to collect taxes.

I'm not saying that ALL governments are not any better than petty criminals who are willing to beat up a small business owner who is unable to pay them, I'm just saying there seems to be a ...unsettling similarity between what criminals do to collect money through racketeering and what governments do in order to collect taxes.
03-13-2017, 10:48 PM #2
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,581 Threads:408 Joined:Jun 2012
In my opinion, our leaders don't have the 'out of the box' critical thinking skills to come up with any other strategies except raising taxes or cutting programs. Or, once they get accustomed to their elitist lifestyles they become lazy and opt for the easiest way of doing things, which is to raise taxes over and over again - until we protest.
03-14-2017, 02:06 AM #3
dclements Member
Posts:175 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(03-13-2017, 10:48 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  In my opinion, our leaders don't have the 'out of the box' critical thinking skills to come up with any other strategies except raising taxes or cutting programs. Or, once they get accustomed to their elitist lifestyles they become lazy and opt for the easiest way of doing things, which is to raise taxes over and over again - until we protest.
Well the worst part about it was that they use to rely on business and corporate taxes (and similar taxes), but now they mostly rely on personal income taxes. As far as I know there wasn't hardly any income taxes before World War I and WW II and they where enacted in order to help pay for the various military projects that where needed at those times. When the wars ended, the income taxes got reduced a bit but never really eliminated (since it was so much easier get money through income taxes and people had slightly got use to it) and as the cold war got hot it was only natural for them to start using income taxes to again pay for addition government expenses. After a few generations people eventually forgot that there was even a time before income taxes.

The problem with income taxes is that it is a tax on one's GROSS income and not NET income; if a business got taxed on gross income instead of net income they would be out of business pretty quickly. A person has to trade their blood, sweat, and tears as well as a decent amount of the money they earn in order to earn their paycheck and the government NEVER subtracts the cost of such expenses (or I should say the real costs) from the taxes they are expected to pay since if they did most people wouldn't have to pay anything; which is why any income taxes was considered an unfair burden before WWI and WWII. However with business and corporations finding every loop hole that they can to avoid taxes, endless wars and large standing armies that require near WWI & WWII expenditures, huge debts that require interest payments,etc ,etc it is unlikely that income taxes will be eliminated or lowered any time soon since they now make up the lion share of how the US government gets it's funding.
03-14-2017, 02:13 AM #4
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,581 Threads:408 Joined:Jun 2012
(03-14-2017, 02:06 AM)dclements Wrote:  
(03-13-2017, 10:48 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  In my opinion, our leaders don't have the 'out of the box' critical thinking skills to come up with any other strategies except raising taxes or cutting programs. Or, once they get accustomed to their elitist lifestyles they become lazy and opt for the easiest way of doing things, which is to raise taxes over and over again - until we protest.
Well the worst part about it was that they use to rely on business and corporate taxes (and similar taxes), but now they mostly rely on personal income taxes. As far as I know there wasn't hardly any income taxes before World War I and WW II and they where enacted in order to help pay for the various military projects that where needed at those times. When the wars ended, the income taxes got reduced a bit but never really eliminated (since it was so much easier get money through income taxes and people had slightly got use to it) and as the cold war got hot it was only natural for them to start using income taxes to again pay for addition government expenses. After a few generations people eventually forgot that there was even a time before income taxes.

The problem with income taxes is that it is a tax on one's GROSS income and not NET income; if a business got taxed on gross income instead of net income they would be out of business pretty quickly. A person has to trade their blood, sweat, and tears as well as a decent amount of the money they earn in order to earn their paycheck and the government NEVER subtracts the cost of such expenses (or I should say the real costs) from the taxes they are expected to pay since if they did most people wouldn't have to pay anything; which is why any income taxes was considered an unfair burden before WWI and WWII. However with business and corporations finding every loop hole that they can to avoid taxes, endless wars and large standing armies that require near WWI & WWII expenditures, huge debts that require interest payments,etc ,etc it is unlikely that income taxes will be eliminated or lowered any time soon since they now make up the lion share of how the US government gets it's funding.

This can't go on like this...Humpty Dumpty will fall off the wall.
03-14-2017, 06:49 AM #5
ocker1 Member
Posts:1,950 Threads:767 Joined:Mar 2011
03-14-2017, 12:00 PM #6
Kreeper Griobhtha
Posts:9,957 Threads:593 Joined:Feb 2011
Income taxes have to be on your gross income because the taxes are what cause you to have gross and net income. Insurance premiums and retirement are taken out pre-tax but everything else is taxes. (Excluding wage garnishments. Not sure about them.)

In answer to your question: racketeering v taxes? One is enforced by busted kneecaps- the other is enforced by "law" enforcement, property seizures, fines and the threat of prison. One makes no pretense toward being "legal" while the other insists it is. One is operated in the dark while the other claims we chose it by choosing our "leaders". One claims your business might catch fire without it while the other claims that the world will fall into ruin without it.

That's about it.

 
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
03-14-2017, 12:02 PM #7
Kreeper Griobhtha
Posts:9,957 Threads:593 Joined:Feb 2011
By the way, most people have surnames because it was necessary for distinction when personal taxes were implemented in Europe.

 
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
03-14-2017, 08:16 PM #8
dclements Member
Posts:175 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(03-14-2017, 02:13 AM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(03-14-2017, 02:06 AM)dclements Wrote:  
(03-13-2017, 10:48 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  In my opinion, our leaders don't have the 'out of the box' critical thinking skills to come up with any other strategies except raising taxes or cutting programs. Or, once they get accustomed to their elitist lifestyles they become lazy and opt for the easiest way of doing things, which is to raise taxes over and over again - until we protest.
Well the worst part about it was that they use to rely on business and corporate taxes (and similar taxes), but now they mostly rely on personal income taxes. As far as I know there wasn't hardly any income taxes before World War I and WW II and they where enacted in order to help pay for the various military projects that where needed at those times. When the wars ended, the income taxes got reduced a bit but never really eliminated (since it was so much easier get money through income taxes and people had slightly got use to it) and as the cold war got hot it was only natural for them to start using income taxes to again pay for addition government expenses. After a few generations people eventually forgot that there was even a time before income taxes.

The problem with income taxes is that it is a tax on one's GROSS income and not NET income; if a business got taxed on gross income instead of net income they would be out of business pretty quickly. A person has to trade their blood, sweat, and tears as well as a decent amount of the money they earn in order to earn their paycheck and the government NEVER subtracts the cost of such expenses (or I should say the real costs) from the taxes they are expected to pay since if they did most people wouldn't have to pay anything; which is why any income taxes was considered an unfair burden before WWI and WWII. However with business and corporations finding every loop hole that they can to avoid taxes, endless wars and large standing armies that require near WWI & WWII expenditures, huge debts that require interest payments,etc ,etc it is unlikely that income taxes will be eliminated or lowered any time soon since they now make up the lion share of how the US government gets it's funding.

This can't go on like this...Humpty Dumpty will fall off the wall.
I agree. The only reason the system is continued to be propped up as it has is because every other country is also using fiat currency, the people that the government borrows from (such as US banks and China) have a vested interest in keeping it propped up, and the strength/growth of the US economy is just enough to deal with things like taxes, debt, and other stuff that weigh it down. Or at least it has been enough since during the cold war and during the past few decades but it isn't a given it can last forever.

In a way the British economy was similar to the US's in where they had to provide military and other support in order to maintain the colonial empires, but those colonial empires came at a cost in that they required favorable trade treaties in order to maximize profits for British corporations which in turn helped fuel the fire's of UK enemies. After WWII the UK had such massive war debts to the US and others that had to dismantle much of what was left of their empire and rely on the US. In may ways England played a pivotal rule in undermining the Nazi's, but it cost them so much that they had to rely more on the US and others to provide global security. While the US may not have many of the limitations that the UK had being a smaller economy and an island country, the leaders in the US are dumber and more arrogant and more likely to abuse our advantages too much to the point where can still get ourselves into the same pickle that the UK was in.
03-14-2017, 08:52 PM #9
dclements Member
Posts:175 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(03-14-2017, 12:00 PM)Kreeper Wrote:  Income taxes have to be on your gross income because the taxes are what cause you to have gross and net income. Insurance premiums and retirement are taken out pre-tax but everything else is taxes. (Excluding wage garnishments. Not sure about them.)
Yes I know that they HAVE to tax gross because they can not tax net (although they do account for the fact if people have children, but you are missing the point. IF they TAXED what WOULD be left over after a person pays expense AND deducts the 'human cost' (ie. one year of your life), there would be nothing left.

I also know that people's wages would be less in the US if they didn't have to pay taxes (just as wages outside of New York city are often 50% to 100% less than what they are in New York City due to the actual expenses one has to deal with when they live there). But still, it is a HUGE burden for US taxpayers that makes it hard for them to compete with other workers on an equal level, since even if you work as hard or even harder in the US than people in other parts of the world there is almost NO WAY you can survive on what they pay people there here, just as you can't live in New York what they people that live outside of New York.

(03-14-2017, 12:00 PM)Kreeper Wrote:  In answer to your question: racketeering v taxes? One is enforced by busted kneecaps- the other is enforced by "law" enforcement, property seizures, fines and the threat of prison. One makes no pretense toward being "legal" while the other insists it is. One is operated in the dark while the other claims we chose it by choosing our "leaders". One claims your business might catch fire without it while the other claims that the world will fall into ruin without it.

That's about it.
Give enough money and other resources to a criminal element and I'm sure they can create some pretense as being legal. From what I have hear Hezbollah has social programs to help the poor and ISIS has set up some kind of sudo government to 'collect taxes' (or protection money depending on how you look at it) in order provide their own version of social programs, 'security', as well as their version of 'Islamic law'.

Also in Russia a lot of the government is run by what is Ex-KGB or influenced by what was left over of the KGB from the Cold War era. While the KGB isn't exactly the same thing as a criminal organization, they are not all that different either in that they are more likely willing to get techniques used by criminals such as sending actual convicted criminals over to the US in order to create problems for defectors and/or gain intelligence.

I'm not saying that ALL governments and ALL taxes are 'evil', I'm just saying that there is a similarity in how they operate.; and oppressive taxes can be equally oppressive as people having to pay racketeering money. When you think about how people have to pay the burden to BOTH the costs of military security of the world as well as almost ALL pharmaceutical research costs (since governments with socialized medicine force pharmaceuticals to sell them drugs at costs and pharmaceutical lobby the US government to for US citizens to pay for whatever price the drug companies want to sell to people in the US at) and then are ALSO left unprotected during trade wars (since US companies as well as the US government are more than happy to outsource all our jobs and technology to other countries if it means a few extra bucks in their pockets or re-election campaigns) then you realize how US citizens have a huge burden placed on them that isn't felt as much in other developed countries.

In fact, it is not too often that a US citizen has trouble trying to work and pay for expenses here and then finds it easier when they travel abroad to work in other places. While the accommodations might be not what they are use to, I'm pretty sure there is less expectations of them. Well at least from what I hear from people immigrating to the US, things are often a lot less strict other places.
03-14-2017, 08:59 PM #10
dclements Member
Posts:175 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(03-14-2017, 12:02 PM)Kreeper Wrote:  By the way, most people have surnames because it was necessary for distinction when personal taxes were implemented in Europe.
And people often fled Europe to the New World in order to avoid opposite governments and taxes even if they had to live away far away from what was considered civilization and security of those times; mainly because the rulers of European countries treated their citizens like livestock instead of as people. I guess as the US became an industrial nation as well we choose to do things the old way than stick to many of the ideas we were founded on.



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