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The Fukushima Disaster
11-10-2016, 08:22 AM #1,576
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,624 Threads:1,567 Joined:Feb 2011
There is still the equivalence of a nuclear war here, and celebrities are worried about Trump and people are worried about spirit cooking.

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İmage

İmage

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Anonymous Kritter Show this Post
12-09-2016, 02:42 PM #1,577
Anonymous Kritter Incognito Anonymous
 
Radiation from Fukushima nuclear plant detected on west coast
http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/in...river_home

Killing us slowly.
Al Dente Show this Post
12-13-2016, 03:15 PM #1,578
Al Dente Incognito Anonymous
 
I want to go back to Japan
is it safe to go now?? after all these years?
I remember they used to teach us kids that nuclear waste radiation lasts for 50,000 years and will kill you
so why are people still alive after such nuclear wastage?
I am confused.
12-19-2016, 02:34 AM #1,579
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:43,038 Threads:1,477 Joined:Feb 2011
Yes high doses will kill you, but low doses have long term effects. It f*cks up your dna and you will have mutant kids. Think Godzilla.
01-03-2017, 03:44 AM #1,580
nobody Member
Posts:217 Threads:56 Joined:Dec 2014



hypnotoad.gif

 Nobody, Has a need to know about anything!
scihub.something Show this Post
01-15-2017, 09:26 AM #1,581
scihub.something Incognito Anonymous
 
(01-03-2017, 03:44 AM)nobody Wrote:  


hypnotoad.gif

so just go to the blue areas.. the red is hot hott. spicy.

Though that discredits the whole disaster thing .. epidemic!

Hopefully someone or thing will be able to turn it into a good thing. Chain reaction to nullify it or something with the magic of numbers.


Especially with all the new torrents of top level shelf books for free. . Might be possible. An enthusist maybe a cure like from that movie "Lorenzo oil"
<shrug>
01-18-2017, 05:15 AM #1,582
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
(01-15-2017, 09:26 AM)scihub.something Wrote:  
(01-03-2017, 03:44 AM)nobody Wrote:  


hypnotoad.gif

so just go to the blue areas.. the red is hot hott. spicy.

Though that discredits the whole disaster thing .. epidemic!

Hopefully someone or thing will be able to turn it into a good thing. Chain reaction to nullify it or something with the magic of numbers.


Especially with all the new torrents of top level shelf books for free. . Might be possible. An enthusist maybe a cure like from that movie "Lorenzo oil"
<shrug>

? We shall be enthusiastic and produce a cure and save humanity...we are survivors.
01-29-2017, 10:44 PM #1,583
dclements Member
Posts:168 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
As a person that has taken courses in nuclear power and radiation safety, I find most of the news warning about the dangers of radiation don't really know what they are talking about and try to use something like a knee jerk reaction to anything they hear in order to make their readers even more paranoid than what they are.

As long as a person doesn't die from acute radiation poisoning (and/or necrosis caused by it) you have a good chance of recovering from whatever happened and going on to live a happy life; that is if your life was happy to begin with.

Even the Chernobyl liquidators (ie. those Russian conscripts dressed in thick plastic mats that spent several minutes on the roof throwing whatever that might still be glowing and other junk back into building until they got their "lifetime amount of allowable radiation" or started showing signs of acute radiation sickness suck as confusion and puking ) showed no significant statistical signs of increased fatality or cancer twenty years later when a study was done to determine what long term effects the radiation had on them.

The only health issue I can remember that was while reading the study done by the World Health Organization/WHO is that there was an greatly increased rate of thyroid cancer (the thyroid is very prone to getting cancer after even slight radiation exposure) among children and teens and an estimated 4,000 people (mostly children, young adults) who may have not take anti-radiation medicine or measure at the time came down with thyroid cancer. Of those 4,000 people most of them got treatment and got better, but around 10 of them die which is a much smaller number than the 100-120 liquidators and firefighters who died of injuries and acute radiation poisoning at the time of the accident.

Accidents at nuclear power plants are not pleasant but their overall effect is often not as bad as many other industrial accident, the fatalities cause by other lines of work such as truck driving/mining coal, etc. And the dangers of nuclear power to the public are often much much less than other forms of energy (the radiation the nearby public get from coal plants pumping ashes into the air is much much higher along with toxic waste it contains). The only problem for nuclear is that you CAN"T dilute your waste into the nearby environment, and because it is stored in a more concentrated form (ie. spent fuel pools) than other power plants, people freak out. Also people are freaked out just because they know next to nothing, and that fear turns them into NIMBYs from time to time.

Of course this is all from a person that is Pro-Nuclear so I might be a little biased even if I try not to be.
01-31-2017, 02:18 PM #1,584
DaJavoo If looks could kilt
Posts:1,854 Threads:43 Joined:Mar 2011
Your argument for coal is outdated. Clean coal technology has been around for two generations and gets better all the time. Fly ash is precipitated out of the smokestacks and collected 24 hours a day at coal burning facilities. It costs a fortune, which is why U.S. electricity rates are sky high.

Of course, China doesn't employ that...

As for nuclear:

I, too, used to think it was a good deal. (30 yrs in military & power utility industry) Safe to say Chernobyl and Fukushima, which continues to shït in our collective messkit in the Pacific, pretty much argue against it. Waste can be dealt with ~ but major fukups without the possibility of a do-over are forever.

Your argument that radiation poison can be survived is also a bit on the freakin' bogus side.

I mean, really? Why the hell should innocent peeps have no say whatsoever in a fatal or non-fatal dose of that shït? I think it should be a fundamental human right that life be pursued without the fear of glowing in the dark.

Your argument is akin to giving a child a box of rattlesnakes to play with because they are entertaining and very pretty (the benefit) and if the child gets bitten, yeah there may be a horrendous amount of swelling, limb-loss or death but it will probably be survivable if the kid's only bitten by one of the snakes and the antivenin is close at hand. (the cleanup)

The earth has enough fossil fuels to keep life as we know it going until advancements in alt-energy catch up with demand ~ and, we have the technology to keep it clean ~ it's done every day at coal fired power plants in Europe & the U.S..

imo, it's beyond time to phase out nukes.
01-31-2017, 06:08 PM #1,585
dclements Member
Posts:168 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  Your argument for coal is outdated. Clean coal technology has been around for two generations and gets better all the time. Fly ash is precipitated out of the smokestacks and collected 24 hours a day at coal burning facilities. It costs a fortune, which is why U.S. electricity rates are sky high.
I try and look over the numbers again, but you might be right (or that I at least believe you are right that coal is a little cleaner than before) since the statistical data I believe I based it upon was from a study done in the UK sometime in the 80s or 90s. Still at least the coal industry doesn't have to capture 99.9999% of the waste involved in the generation of power.


(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  Of course, China doesn't employ that...
Of course they don't because none of their industries could survive if they had to live up to US safety standards which is why they start a trade war with us (like Japan did in the 70s-80s) and can pump cheap junk into our market ruin our economy. But that is really neither here nor there.

(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  As for nuclear:

I, too, used to think it was a good deal. (30 yrs in military & power utility industry) Safe to say Chernobyl and Fukushima, which continues to shït in our collective messkit in the Pacific, pretty much argue against it. Waste can be dealt with ~ but major fukups without the possibility of a do-over are forever.
I don't know where you get your information from but I was at a conference (or more like a conference/diner meeting) with the head of the US agency in charge of the effort to help Japan and clean up Fukushima after the incident at their reactor. The reactor itself was based off an old 50s or 60s design that was built in the early 70s and was at the end of it's maintenance cycle and about to be replaced. It only fail because over a half a dozen things went wrong (such as the flooding knocking out back up generators and the earth quack damaging destroying other systems) causing the equivalent of something like an overall total system failure.

And the head of agency said the was 'zero' risk (as in zero fatalities due to the accident and overall zero anticipated long term fatalities due to radiation) to the local population. Where there was any risk to people helping in the cleanup I don't remember anything specific about that but I'm pretty sure that it is unlikely to be any worse than Chernobyl.


(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  Your argument that radiation poison can be survived is also a bit on the freakin' bogus side.
I hate to tell you, but you are wrong and the fact that you said that means you probably know next to nothing about the radiation safety or the dangers of radiation; which in all honesty can be a bit complicated. Do us a little bit of a favor and do a little due diligence on this topic. For example , Albert Stevens has been given the title of "surviving the highest known radiation dose in any human" after getting injected with radioactive plutonium. According to Wiki:

"Stevens died of heart disease some 20 years later, having accumulated an effective radiation dose of 64 Sv (6400 rem) over that period. The current annual permitted dose for a radiation worker in the United States is 0.05 Sv (or 5 rem)."

To put it this way, Steven's was able to survive an overall dose that was FIFTY times higher than the dose that people at Chernobyl got, passed out, and died when they came too because their flesh started rotting off of their bodies. The main difference is Steven's is an overall dose, and that he likely got better medical help than some of those at Chernobyl did. While there are circumstance where someone gets a immediate one time dose that can be lethal, it is probably at lot rarer than you think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stevens

(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  I mean, really? Why the hell should innocent peeps have no say whatsoever in a fatal or non-fatal dose of that shït? I think it should be a fundamental human right that life be pursued without the fear of glowing in the dark.

Your argument is akin to giving a child a box of rattlesnakes to play with because they are entertaining and very pretty (the benefit) and if the child gets bitten, yeah there may be a horrendous amount of swelling, limb-loss or death but it will probably be survivable if the kid's only bitten by one of the snakes and the antivenin is close at hand. (the cleanup)
Actually it is not because there are no kids being killed by radiation poisoning, or at least known that is known by the data collected by the WHO organization, where as kids die nearly every day from things like snake and spider bites as well as lightening strikes.

Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day and about 30,000 of those deaths are in the US alone. You want to know how many people die from radiation poisoning due to the nuclear power industry? The number according to every respectable source I know is near zero.

(01-31-2017, 02:18 PM)DaJavoo Wrote:  The earth has enough fossil fuels to keep life as we know it going until advancements in alt-energy catch up with demand ~ and, we have the technology to keep it clean ~ it's done every day at coal fired power plants in Europe & the U.S..

imo, it's beyond time to phase out nukes.
Well, if you have anything to back up your arguments then show it, every study by the WHO or any other organization shows that it is as safe or safe than other other industries.
01-31-2017, 07:03 PM #1,586
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
Recent study claims that radiation levels lower that first thought due to way radiation levels are measured. This is new territory.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/24/fukushima...finds.html

Quote:Meanwhile, six airborne radiation surveys of Fukushima Prefecture were conducted by the national government. Sensors attached to helicopters measured radioactive cesium on the ground, and researchers used scaling laws to convert that data to expected doses at ground level. Because many people spend most of their time indoors, protected by radiation-absorbing buildings, government scientists further assumed that just 60% of that radiation actually reached most subjects. That estimate was based on the standard assumption that people spend 8 hours outdoors and 16 hours indoors each day.

Now, Makoto Miyazaki, a radiologist at Fukushima Medical University, and Ryugo Hayano, a University of Tokyo physicist, have taken the thousands of data points from the Date dosimeters and compared them with the ground-level estimates from the helicopter data. The scientists concluded that actual radiation doses were roughly 15% of what the helicopters were measuring, scaled to ground level, they reported last month in the Journal of Radiological Protection. That’s four times less radiation than what the Japanese government was previously assuming.

The researchers give several reasons for the large difference. Chief among them: “Residents [are] not staying outdoors for 8 hours each day,” Miyazaki says. He hopes these results will help other researchers better predict actual radiation doses—and therefore potential health effects—based on rapid airborne surveys. A better estimate of individual radiation doses might also allow displaced people to return to their homes sooner, Higley notes.

For Date residents, it’s good news that radiation levels are lower than expected. But the result comes with a less-than-silver lining: Some of the region’s expensive, time-consuming decontamination efforts—such as the removal of topsoil and tree bark—might not have been necessary.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/f...on-thought
01-31-2017, 07:12 PM #1,587
dclements Member
Posts:168 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
DaJavoo, since you mentioned that you worked in the power industry (nuclear or otherwise) and you base your opinion on personal experiences I will give you some benefit of the doubt and try to collect any material that may help your case and give them to you as well.

Part of the edjimication nuclear power students went through was we were instructed to find any legit sources that show the dangers of nuclear power. Obviously there are certain dangers in any industrial/manufacturing process so most of the focus is in the area of the dangers of radiation itself. While I couldn't find anything that exactly hair raising (or I should say hair raising to people make a living working in a nuclear power plant, who have to work and deal with the dangers of radiation every day), it might be interesting to outsiders who are not as aware of some of the dangers and/or history It might take me some time to rediscover them but I promise I will give them to you if I can find them again.
01-31-2017, 07:59 PM #1,588
dclements Member
Posts:168 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
(01-31-2017, 07:03 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  Recent study claims that radiation levels lower that first thought due to way radiation levels are measured. This is new territory.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/24/fukushima...finds.html

Quote:Meanwhile, six airborne radiation surveys of Fukushima Prefecture were conducted by the national government. Sensors attached to helicopters measured radioactive cesium on the ground, and researchers used scaling laws to convert that data to expected doses at ground level. Because many people spend most of their time indoors, protected by radiation-absorbing buildings, government scientists further assumed that just 60% of that radiation actually reached most subjects. That estimate was based on the standard assumption that people spend 8 hours outdoors and 16 hours indoors each day.

Now, Makoto Miyazaki, a radiologist at Fukushima Medical University, and Ryugo Hayano, a University of Tokyo physicist, have taken the thousands of data points from the Date dosimeters and compared them with the ground-level estimates from the helicopter data. The scientists concluded that actual radiation doses were roughly 15% of what the helicopters were measuring, scaled to ground level, they reported last month in the Journal of Radiological Protection. That’s four times less radiation than what the Japanese government was previously assuming.

The researchers give several reasons for the large difference. Chief among them: “Residents [are] not staying outdoors for 8 hours each day,” Miyazaki says. He hopes these results will help other researchers better predict actual radiation doses—and therefore potential health effects—based on rapid airborne surveys. A better estimate of individual radiation doses might also allow displaced people to return to their homes sooner, Higley notes.

For Date residents, it’s good news that radiation levels are lower than expected. But the result comes with a less-than-silver lining: Some of the region’s expensive, time-consuming decontamination efforts—such as the removal of topsoil and tree bark—might not have been necessary.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/01/f...on-thought
Thanks for the info. reading.gif

From what I can remember from my nuclear safety classes, supposedly the people in Japan receive less radiation than most of us in the US (due our environment and some of the the after effects of all our own nuclear tests...oops) and the people living near Fukushima receive roughly the same as a majority of the people in the US; which happens to be considered higher than normal for Japan but still sort of safe.

It is kind of hard to put radiation exposure in exactly layman terms but on average most people get around 0.2-1.0 RAD/REM a year, people that use to work in some of the older nuclear plants or live in areas with higher radiation could get 2-5 RAD/REM a year, very young or old and/or people with compromised immune systems can start having higher rates of cancer and other health effects at about 5-10 RAD/REM, the average adult starts showing the effects of radiation poisoning at about 20 RAD/REM. As the rate of radiation goes from 20 to 100 RAD/REM the chances of death increase with 100 RAD/REM carrying over 50% of death unless receiving the best possible medical attention (ie. the worst cases at Chernobyl where firefighters and liquidators died were often in the 100-200 RAD/REM I believe). Between 100-400 RAD/REM main body exposure death starts becoming unavoidable even with some of the best medical attention and 400 RAD/REM and beyond is more or less considered "the point of no return" or at least around that area the point of no return begins.

To put this in some perspective with Fukushima, as far as I know the workers there have not received a higher dose than 2 RAD/REM and local residence have not ever received more than 0.2-1 RAD/REM that I'm aware of.

While these rule of thumb numbers don't tell the whole story they are a good place to start for some people that don't know much about the topic.
01-31-2017, 08:24 PM #1,589
dclements Member
Posts:168 Threads:15 Joined:Jan 2017
While I haven't been able to find a free pdf of it yet (which I happened across several years ago), the book that could be a good source of things that have gone wrong in researching, developing weapons, mining, or just about anything else dealing with nuclear technology or technology that exposes the public to any kind of radiation is the Plutonium Files. It sort of deals with pre-WW III incidents, the Manhattan project and related research, and Cold War black projects to one up the USSR. As far as I know of it is the best source of any problems that the US has had in dealing people being exposed to radiation, as well as the best source at documenting classified/secret projects that the government may have wanted to keep hidden.

Also you might want to know about SL-1 which was an early experimental reactor built and operated by the military that happen to actually go critical (similar to how Chernobyl went critical) and killed the three people at the site. It is the kind of story that US nuclear power students are told in order for them to understand some of the dangers involved in operating a nuclear power plant and respect what kind of power (no pun intended) they are dealing with.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plutonium_Files
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1
01-31-2017, 08:27 PM #1,590
DaJavoo If looks could kilt
Posts:1,854 Threads:43 Joined:Mar 2011
dc, I appreciate your efforts.

The utility I worked for had three nuke plants. Trust me, I am familiar with the arguments.

Catastrophic failures do occur.

My points are simple and really need no 'stats'.

1. Tsunamis are unpredictable, but basically occur near the coast. Mother nature will always hold the trump cards on man's plans. Murphy's Law.

2. Meltdowns & containment failures pretty much fuk things up for the conceivable future.

3. There ARE NO "allowable" man-caused, "acceptable" radiation levels. Survivable or not, radiation is harmful to living beings and their genetic code.

4. We cannot effectively contain potential damage and should move to retire nuclear facilities and replace them with better solutions.



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