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The Fukushima Disaster
11-07-2012, 11:05 PM #1,081
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
(11-07-2012, 07:50 AM)Casual Bystander Wrote:  Why is this a disaster thread???

TEPCO (the Japanese power company) did an outstanding job of containing nuclear reactors that had gone uncooled for 24 hours.

The brave TEPCO employees who brought the reactors to a cold status should be praised for their courage and perseverance in the face of adversity.

We should celebrate their success. They contained the radioactivity so successfully that more people were lost in the evacuation of Fukushima than would have been lost if they had stayed.


The disaster here is with Japan's government and the people who run TEPCO, not to mention the contamination of people and land. We really don't know what's going on there...now do we?
Casual Bystander Show this Post
11-08-2012, 02:30 AM #1,082
Casual Bystander Incognito Anonymous
 
(11-07-2012, 11:05 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(11-07-2012, 07:50 AM)Casual Bystander Wrote:  Why is this a disaster thread???

TEPCO (the Japanese power company) did an outstanding job of containing nuclear reactors that had gone uncooled for 24 hours.

The brave TEPCO employees who brought the reactors to a cold status should be praised for their courage and perseverance in the face of adversity.

We should celebrate their success. They contained the radioactivity so successfully that more people were lost in the evacuation of Fukushima than would have been lost if they had stayed.


The disaster here is with Japan's government and the people who run TEPCO, not to mention the contamination of people and land. We really don't know what's going on there...now do we?



It is paranoia to believe that just because we don't know what the little critters are doing, they are doing something wrong.

I have a lot of respect for the Japanese. Their consistency, dedication, and attention to detail, in my opinion are superior to Americans. Back when I was working on mainframes the Japanese had 6 times better up time on the same units.

TEPCO got handed an excrement sandwich and they are trying to get rid of it as fast as possible.

They took reactors that were uncooled for 24 hours and brought them under control. If the reactors had been in the US we probably would have a couple of smoking holes.

They are doing their best and we should be supportive.
11-08-2012, 02:42 AM #1,083
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:43,068 Threads:1,478 Joined:Feb 2011
We're all supportive of the people of Japan or anywhere, but corporate greed looks the same everywhere.

shït sandwich? TEPCO should have been prepared. shït happens even in Japan.

Quote: Emerging evidence shows that a tsunami like the one that
overwhelmed the Fukushima Daiichi plant in March could happen
once every 1,000 years or less, said George Apostolakis, one of
three Democrats on the five-member Nuclear Regulatory
Commission.

That kind of frequency would be unacceptable for U.S.
plants not to be prepared for and it showed the plant was not
adequately designed to protect against events that were within
the realm of probability, Apostolakis said.

"This focus on the unthinkable is really misplaced. It was
not unthinkable at all," Apostolakis said in a speech at the
Bipartisan Policy Center.

He said not enough people have yet acknowledged the issue
that the plant should been better secured. "This is the kind of
secret that everybody knows but nobody wants to say anything
about."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/0...1Y20110803
11-08-2012, 03:27 AM #1,084
オタマジャクシ Member
Posts:1,366 Threads:33 Joined:Nov 2012
(11-08-2012, 02:42 AM)Octo Wrote:  We're all supportive of the people of Japan or anywhere, but corporate greed looks the same everywhere.

shït sandwich? TEPCO should have been prepared. shït happens even in Japan.

Quote: Emerging evidence shows that a tsunami like the one that
overwhelmed the Fukushima Daiichi plant in March could happen
once every 1,000 years or less, said George Apostolakis, one of
three Democrats on the five-member Nuclear Regulatory
Commission.

That kind of frequency would be unacceptable for U.S.
plants not to be prepared for and it showed the plant was not
adequately designed to protect against events that were within
the realm of probability, Apostolakis said.

"This focus on the unthinkable is really misplaced. It was
not unthinkable at all," Apostolakis said in a speech at the
Bipartisan Policy Center.

He said not enough people have yet acknowledged the issue
that the plant should been better secured. "This is the kind of
secret that everybody knows but nobody wants to say anything
about."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/0...1Y20110803


Don't know what response you want. The reactors are placed near water sources so that a cooling tower isn't needed. Being near a water source is good as long as the water source is well behaved.

Won't defend simple stupidity. The emergency generators should have been at least as well protected as the power plant.

Don't like pressurized water reactors anyway - dumb design. Metal can with radioactive material at 2200 PSI is not ideal. LFTR is much better reactor concept. Much more efficient, produces 50% less waste heat. No water and unpressurized failsafe reactor.
11-08-2012, 03:39 AM #1,085
Octo Mother Superior
Posts:43,068 Threads:1,478 Joined:Feb 2011
Point is, when you run a business that deals with technology with substances with a half-life of up to 250 000 years, some more, some less. Shouldn't you in your risk evaluation include events that occur every 1000 years or less and construct it for that possibility? Especially when you build a nuclear power plant where 3 tectonic plates converge. My guess is no, it's too expensive.

Welcome to the forum btw. cheers.gif
11-08-2012, 03:49 AM #1,086
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
(11-08-2012, 02:30 AM)Casual Bystander Wrote:  
(11-07-2012, 11:05 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(11-07-2012, 07:50 AM)Casual Bystander Wrote:  Why is this a disaster thread???

TEPCO (the Japanese power company) did an outstanding job of containing nuclear reactors that had gone uncooled for 24 hours.

The brave TEPCO employees who brought the reactors to a cold status should be praised for their courage and perseverance in the face of adversity.

We should celebrate their success. They contained the radioactivity so successfully that more people were lost in the evacuation of Fukushima than would have been lost if they had stayed.

The disaster here is with Japan's government and the people who run TEPCO, not to mention the contamination of people and land. We really don't know what's going on there...now do we?



It is paranoia to believe that just because we don't know what the little critters are doing, they are doing something wrong.

I have a lot of respect for the Japanese. Their consistency, dedication, and attention to detail, in my opinion are superior to Americans. Back when I was working on mainframes the Japanese had 6 times better up time on the same units.

TEPCO got handed an excrement sandwich and they are trying to get rid of it as fast as possible.

They took reactors that were uncooled for 24 hours and brought them under control. If the reactors had been in the US we probably would have a couple of smoking holes.

They are doing their best and we should be supportive.


But they were doing wrong as it has been deemed by the Japanese scientists - that this disaster could have been avoided.

I am supportive of the protestors in Japan trying to shut down all nuclear plants and create a healthy future for their children.
11-08-2012, 03:57 AM #1,087
JayRodney ⓐⓛⓘⓔⓝ
Posts:31,658 Threads:1,568 Joined:Feb 2011
iagree.gif THIS
Not just in Japan, but everywhere.

wonder.gif
11-08-2012, 04:15 AM #1,088
オタマジャクシ Member
Posts:1,366 Threads:33 Joined:Nov 2012
(11-08-2012, 03:39 AM)Octo Wrote:  Point is, when you run a business that deals with technology with substances with a half-life of up to 250 000 years, some more, some less. Shouldn't you in your risk evaluation include events that occur every 1000 years or less and construct it for that possibility? Especially when you build a nuclear power plant where 3 tectonic plates converge. My guess is no, it's too expensive.

Welcome to the forum btw. cheers.gif


435 Reactors, 14,897 Reactor operating years, one serious Tsunami accident. The death rate from conventional power plants is considered to be in the thousands per year. The death rate from this accident to the Fukushima community if they stayed is estimated to be less than one hundred. The evacuation killed more than that. They should have stayed.

It wasn't too expensive. They just didn't think the problem through. In most engineering situations you hire experienced engineers, because experience is painful and you don't want it to happen on your project. Current reactors are better because some of the earlier ones weren't.

The half life of U235 is 703.8 million years, the half life of Xenon 133 is 5.2 days, the half-life of Iodine 131 is 8 days. By the time the reactors were under control all the Xenon and Iodine that had been released was gone.

Thank you for the welcome.
cheers.gif
11-08-2012, 07:09 PM #1,089
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
Quote:

Reporters Without Borders reveals that freelance journalists are often discriminated against in Japan which they say is not only illegal under Japan’s own laws, but also violates freedom of information.

http://japandailypress.com/tag/journalism

sad2.gif
11-08-2012, 08:08 PM #1,090
オタマジャクシ Member
Posts:1,366 Threads:33 Joined:Nov 2012
(11-08-2012, 07:09 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  Quote:

Reporters Without Borders reveals that freelance journalists are often discriminated against in Japan which they say is not only illegal under Japan’s own laws, but also violates freedom of information.

http://japandailypress.com/tag/journalism

sad2.gif


Three freelance journalists have lodged a complaint at a Tokyo regional court to be allowed access to the National Diet (Japan's parliament) building.
Not sure the title of the story is accurate.

The protests take place across the street from the Diet. The reporters are allowed across the street from the Diet. They can take all the pictures they want and talk to whoever they want, unhindered. Yet the reporters want access to the Diet (congress building) to report on protests across the street.

There is a official reporter pool in the Diet and the freelance journalists aren't part of the reporting pool.

This doesn't make sense. This story is incomplete. My guess is they are looking for an excuse to force admittance to the official reporting pool, and since everyone views them as annoying gadflies it isn't going to happen.
11-08-2012, 08:27 PM #1,091
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
They and Japanese freelanceers face censorship and discrimination, was my point.

Foreign reporters also describe strict controls over photography through the entire process, concerns that have been echoed by Japanese freelancers.

http://www.japanfocus.org/events/view/150
11-08-2012, 09:58 PM #1,092
オタマジャクシ Member
Posts:1,366 Threads:33 Joined:Nov 2012
(11-08-2012, 08:27 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  They and Japanese freelanceers face censorship and discrimination, was my point.

Foreign reporters also describe strict controls over photography through the entire process, concerns that have been echoed by Japanese freelancers.

http://www.japanfocus.org/events/view/150


"Sigh", you keep making me read and analyze things...

Some background.
1. The reactors are currently down to room temperature.
2. Claims of dangerous radioactivity in Hawaii or California are simply wrong.
3. Cesium 131 is an exponential radioactive poison and you need high levels to cause harm, unlike Iodine 131 which is linear and harm ramps with the dose.
4. Reactor 4 has some issues with the spent fuel pool that need addressing.
5. Except for a plume shaped area most of the exclusion zone is safe. I'd eat any of the cattle wandering around the area.
6. There seems to be a constant Cesium level offshore so they should really get the reactors mothballed as soon as possible.
7. The Tsunami killed 15,861 people. The casualties from the Fukushima plant are projected to be about 0.6% (0.006) of the total casualties. Many of the 15,861 died for more blameworthy reasons than Fukushima Dai-ichi
8. Dai-ichi is #1, Dai-ni or #2 the other facility is preparing to spin up reactors 3 & 4 and is has mostly completed some minor work on 1 & 2.
9. It isn't clear if reactors 5 & 6 will be put back online after the mothballing.

Now the purpose of the reporters is to agitate against nuclear power and portray massive public sentiment against nuclear power, with the hopes of shutting down nuclear power plants. This is wrong headed and unwise, but we will skip that for the moment. It is not in TEPCO's interest to aid and abet these reporters.

TEPCO is on the clock. Some of their workers are getting significant doses and unnecessary exposure delays the work and causes staffing problems. They really are trying to bring this to a close and mothball the reactors as expeditiously as possible. Allowing weekly tours of the facility with cameras and analysis gear so reporters can prick the Japanese conscious and keep it in the news is somewhere between delusional and insane.

TEPCO has been as public and cooperative as they can while staying focused on the task at hand.

Having said that - I don't know why they won't let the independents have cameras. As long as the independents agree to stay with the tour and keep up there is no real reason they shouldn't have some equipment and cameras. The staff that do decontamination aren't critical to the reactor shutdown effort.

If I was paranoid or suspicious I would say that there is something that TEPCO doesn't want the independents to video. But since TEPCO is an honest public utility I am going to assume it is for logistical reasons.
11-10-2012, 02:23 AM #1,093
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
May I suggest you read all the posts of this thread from 1 onwards, so that you analysis will not be flawed. 13.gif
11-10-2012, 04:51 AM #1,094
オタマジャクシ Member
Posts:1,366 Threads:33 Joined:Nov 2012
(11-10-2012, 02:23 AM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  May I suggest you read all the posts of this thread from 1 onwards, so that you analysis will not be flawed. 13.gif


I actually took a nucleonics course in college, I'm not guessing.

Unique, you seem to be a very thoughtful person and have issues with my posts.

If you can express your concerns I will try meeting you halfway.

11-10-2012, 06:47 PM #1,095
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,768 Threads:402 Joined:Jun 2012
(11-10-2012, 04:51 AM)オタマジャクシ Wrote:  
(11-10-2012, 02:23 AM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  May I suggest you read all the posts of this thread from 1 onwards, so that you analysis will not be flawed. 13.gif


I actually took a nucleonics course in college, I'm not guessing.

Unique, you seem to be a very thoughtful person and have issues with my posts.

If you can express your concerns I will try meeting you halfway.


The only issue is that I think your analysis is flawed. Otherwise, feel free to post whatever you desire and I will as well. It's all good.



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