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Tired of living.
12-09-2014, 05:03 PM #31
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
Quote: "Everybodys talkin at me i dont hear a word they're saying only the echoes of my mind

People stop and stare i can't see their faces only the shadows of their eyes"

12-09-2014, 05:23 PM #32
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
(12-09-2014, 04:50 PM)misterbumps Wrote:  
(12-09-2014, 04:05 PM)Cosmic August Wrote:  
Quote: "One must have ones delusions to live, if you look at life too honestly and clearly life does become unbearable, because its a pretty grim enterprise you will admit"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsnxoRfXLqsembedded

Astoundingly and shockingly around a million people commit suicide every year while ten to twenty million others attempt to kill themselves because they are not capable of deluding themselves for they are not willing to bow down and surrender to their illusory delusions > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

In England there are over six million people with mental health disorders. Mental health is the third biggest amount of resource use in the N.H.S yet local councils and boroughs spend as little as four percent of their budgets on this problem and it is completely underfunded. This is going to be a hotly debatable topic in relation to benefits and welfare in five months time when the next General Election is held. The Conservatives want to keep cutting welfare but they are targeting areas that spend very little when one considers pensions as the biggest source of welfare funding. There are many ideas how to tackle the problems but all are radical or carry risk to the rich. For example why should wealthy pensioners be entitled to free travel, free television licenses and free winter fuel allowances? As usual the Conservatives target the poor first.
I wonder how many of those millions of mentally ill people in England lived through the (unimaginable for most of us now) years of relentless warped and twisted evil blitz bombing during world war two that mentally crushed and faithfully shattered and destroyed so many of them or are mentally ill people who were raised by parents and grandparents who suffered through it?!

12-09-2014, 05:27 PM #33
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Seventeen



Quote: "I learned the truth at seventeen That love was meant for beauty queens And high school girls with clear skinned smiles Who married young and then retired

The valentines I never knew The Friday night charades of youth Were spent on one more beautiful At seventeen I learned the truth

And those of us with ravaged faces Lacking in the social graces Desperately remained at home Inventing lovers on the phone

Who called to say come dance with me And murmured vague obscenities It isn't all it seems at seventeen

A brown eyed girl in hand me downs Whose name I never could pronounce Said pity please the ones who serve They only get what they deserve

The rich relationed hometown queen Marries into what she needs With a guarantee of company And haven for the elderly

Remember those who win the game Lose the love they sought to gain In debentures of quality and dubious integrity

The small town eyes will gape at you In dull surprise when payment due Exceeds accounts received at seventeen

To those of us who knew the pain Of valentines that never came And those whose names were never called When choosing sides for basketball

It was long ago and far away The world was younger than today When dreams were all they gave for free To ugly duckling girls like me

We all play the game and when we dare We cheat ourselves at solitaire Inventing lovers on the phone Repenting other lives unknown

That call and say come on dance with me And murmur vague obscenities At ugly girls like me at seventeen"
12-09-2014, 05:37 PM #34
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
To Shadow and WR:

They both seem to dip into short deep depression episodes when they mention taking their own lives, but they don't take drugs or drunk alcohol, which I believe helps to push a person over the edge to actually commit suicide. When they explain to me why they want to do it, believe it or not, their reasons are quite valid because certain aspects of their lives are pretty bad (sad) at that time. But, one woman fails to see the positive in her life, so we will discuss that at length and she always comes out of it when we try to find a new vision/reason for her future (to stick around) and as soon as she takes one step towards that newly envisioned future she is OK again. I make sure I keep in touch with her regularly to make sure she is not isolating herself, which is another problem I feel she slips into and that is not healthy for anyone, IMO.

The other woman has mental issues and when she experiments with new medications, that's when she spirals back down into hopelessness, but her husband and I manage to convince her to go back to the old medication, which seems to control it to a certain degree. So, I have been dealing with her episodes for decades now and we all watch her carefully.

As for alerting the authorities, I think not, because they really don't know what they are doing from what I see. Their psychiatry is so regimented that very little time is given to a person for indepth analysis...get 'em in, get 'em out...medicate them. Any way, as I said, we are monitoring them better than any governmental agency or representative could ever do. This applies to their conditions right now, which we are managing, of course, we would seek help if things were beyond our control.
12-09-2014, 05:41 PM #35
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
(12-09-2014, 02:59 PM)misterbumps Wrote:  As someone who works with mentally ill people if things get worse you need to seek professional help. Not just for your friends but also to ensure you do not end up feeling ill if one of them does decide to try and attempt to commit suicide. In England if suicide is discussed then generally a Section can be enforced although this involves two doctors, one social worker and the police. Most times though I find that those who talk about suicide generally do not do it. It is the ones that say nothing who carry the greatest risk. However if your friends continue to show this attitude and you see no improvement or things worsen you need to get help. This is for your own well-being. You may think that you can carry the weight of your friends problems on your shoulders but you cannot. Professionals are there to help in these situations and by calling them it does not necessarily mean a section. In England we have Home Treatment Teams. These H.T.T's check on those at risk over a period of time in the home environment of those that are ill. I'm not sure what American or Canadian policy is so I really cannot comment further but I will repeat that you cannot help them on your own no matter if you think you can. If something happens you will struggle to deal with it. Christmas is notorious in my profession for these types of cases so just be mindful. Take care and all the best.

If things get worse, I mean really worse, we will certainly take steps to help them.
12-09-2014, 06:22 PM #36
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
12-09-2014, 06:27 PM #37
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
12-09-2014, 06:31 PM #38
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
12-09-2014, 06:34 PM #39
Wicked Oblivion Member
Posts:10,778 Threads:720 Joined:Oct 2012
12-09-2014, 07:08 PM #40
misterbumps Member
Posts:1,051 Threads:38 Joined:Apr 2012
'As for alerting the authorities, I think not, because they really don't know what they are doing from what I see. Their psychiatry is so regimented that very little time is given to a person for in-depth analysis...get 'em in, get 'em out...medicate them. Any way, as I said, we are monitoring them better than any governmental agency or representative could ever do. This applies to their conditions right now, which we are managing, of course, we would seek help if things were beyond our control.'

I'm unsure of American and Canadian facilities and personnel but I totally disagree with this statement with regards to English methods. I work in this field and when we deal with mentally ill people medication is actively discouraged to a certain extent. What we try and do is harmonise. We offer medication (some short measures and some long term depending on the diagnosis) Diagnosing can take many weeks if not months and include psychiatrists, psychologists, care-coordinators, social workers and include one to one and group therapy. I find it offensive that you have a negative view of what mental health teams do. We try our best considering underfunding, lack of staff and trial and error. This is not an exact science and medication is usually presented in the first instance to try to alleviate initial symptoms until proper understanding can be attained. You do not have any professional qualifications or skills and yet throw scorn on medical teams that try their best in circumstances where more and more people are becoming mentally unwell. I have worked on and off in these services for many years and truly believe in them. I find it disgraceful that unqualified people take matters into their own hands and claim medical teams do not do their duty. As part of a mental health medical team I try each and every day to do the best I can and yes I am qualified to make judgements and opinions. I am also continually assessed to ensure I am working in the correct way. You have no idea that if we make mistakes we are heavily dealt with by our managers and commissioners. I take personal insult with your attitude to services that for the majority work. I have seen and helped plenty of people come out of mental illness to manage to have successful lives. Please think before you speak because you do not have the knowledge to make such accusations. I feel absolutely insulted by your comments considering how hard I work and the efforts I make to have solid dialogue with patients based on reciprocity.

I can see by your coat my friend you're from the other side. Just one thing I got to know. Who won?
12-09-2014, 07:19 PM #41
SpiritMasonChazz Member
Posts:975 Threads:102 Joined:Jun 2014
Burn outs
That's what the old nick name was back in my High school days
Burnt outs in life. These people have lost there charge there energy in life many may be to doped up to recuperate from it.

We are given a gift of energy use it wisely.
Meditation breathing , good foods, sunlight & colloidal silver made in warm water gives me back a charge .
12-09-2014, 08:14 PM #42
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
(12-09-2014, 07:08 PM)misterbumps Wrote:  'As for alerting the authorities, I think not, because they really don't know what they are doing from what I see. Their psychiatry is so regimented that very little time is given to a person for in-depth analysis...get 'em in, get 'em out...medicate them. Any way, as I said, we are monitoring them better than any governmental agency or representative could ever do. This applies to their conditions right now, which we are managing, of course, we would seek help if things were beyond our control.'

I'm unsure of American and Canadian facilities and personnel but I totally disagree with this statement with regards to English methods. I work in this field and when we deal with mentally ill people medication is actively discouraged to a certain extent. What we try and do is harmonise. We offer medication (some short measures and some long term depending on the diagnosis) Diagnosing can take many weeks if not months and include psychiatrists, psychologists, care-coordinators, social workers and include one to one and group therapy. I find it offensive that you have a negative view of what mental health teams do. We try our best considering underfunding, lack of staff and trial and error. This is not an exact science and medication is usually presented in the first instance to try to alleviate initial symptoms until proper understanding can be attained. You do not have any professional qualifications or skills and yet throw scorn on medical teams that try their best in circumstances where more and more people are becoming mentally unwell. I have worked on and off in these services for many years and truly believe in them. I find it disgraceful that unqualified people take matters into their own hands and claim medical teams do not do their duty. As part of a mental health medical team I try each and every day to do the best I can and yes I am qualified to make judgements and opinions. I am also continually assessed to ensure I am working in the correct way. You have no idea that if we make mistakes we are heavily dealt with by our managers and commissioners. I take personal insult with your attitude to services that for the majority work. I have seen and helped plenty of people come out of mental illness to manage to have successful lives. Please think before you speak because you do not have the knowledge to make such accusations. I feel absolutely insulted by your comments considering how hard I work and the efforts I make to have solid dialogue with patients based on reciprocity.

The knowledge I have is life's experiences within my circle of people where the system has failed them. Where they ended up being sent home with medication that may or may not help them - let's go through a barrage of different medications to see if we are lucky enough to hit on the right one or right combination (continuing trial and error)....where my friend is at right now and has been for the last 30 years. You should be more concerned in researching methods to improve the system which fails so many ill people, instead of feeling complacent in a system that directs it's procedures depending upon budgetary concerns.

Also, my brother had a psychiatric team tend to his needs, after all was said and done, he committed suicide.

If you and your team have saved a few people, I commend you, but I was not insulting you, just your trial and error science.

And what of the elderly that sanely and wisely (in who's opinion? theirs!) want to opt out of life for they own reasons, what do your books say about that?

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/188/5/405.full

"The acknowledgement of mental suffering as a valid ground for euthanasia, as established explicitly in Belgian law, is unique. With respect to both medical and ethical issues, the debate about the legitimacy of these grounds persists."

"Another important argument concentrates on the ambiguous notion of mental illness itself. If patients suffer in their environment and develop a mental disorder, it is difficult to ascertain whether the mental disorder and suffering are solely a natural reaction to an intolerable and/or hostile environment, or whether genuine mental disorder has ensued. Historical examples are the high numbers of suicide in unmarried mothers and gay men (once considered to be mentally ill) in social environments where they were not accepted. Thus, the term ‘mental suffering stemming from mental disorder’ is vague and hard to define, and the potential for abuse is serious. A final but recurring theme in the literature is a fear of gradual social acceptance of the practice of euthanasia, which might lead to a less careful decision-making process and to dealing less adequately with suicidal ideation and behaviour (van der Maas et al, 1996; Hamilton & Hamilton, 2000; Onwuteaka-Philipsen et al, 2003)."
12-09-2014, 08:16 PM #43
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
(12-09-2014, 07:19 PM)SpiritMasonChazz Wrote:  Burn outs
That's what the old nick name was back in my High school days
Burnt outs in life. These people have lost there charge there energy in life many may be to doped up to recuperate from it.

We are given a gift of energy use it wisely.
Meditation breathing , good foods, sunlight & colloidal silver made in warm water gives me back a charge .

And family and friends that step up to support these people, of course, with their family doctor's assistance.
12-10-2014, 12:13 AM #44
misterbumps Member
Posts:1,051 Threads:38 Joined:Apr 2012
(12-09-2014, 08:14 PM)UniqueStranger Wrote:  
(12-09-2014, 07:08 PM)misterbumps Wrote:  'As for alerting the authorities, I think not, because they really don't know what they are doing from what I see. Their psychiatry is so regimented that very little time is given to a person for in-depth analysis...get 'em in, get 'em out...medicate them. Any way, as I said, we are monitoring them better than any governmental agency or representative could ever do. This applies to their conditions right now, which we are managing, of course, we would seek help if things were beyond our control.'

I'm unsure of American and Canadian facilities and personnel but I totally disagree with this statement with regards to English methods. I work in this field and when we deal with mentally ill people medication is actively discouraged to a certain extent. What we try and do is harmonise. We offer medication (some short measures and some long term depending on the diagnosis) Diagnosing can take many weeks if not months and include psychiatrists, psychologists, care-coordinators, social workers and include one to one and group therapy. I find it offensive that you have a negative view of what mental health teams do. We try our best considering underfunding, lack of staff and trial and error. This is not an exact science and medication is usually presented in the first instance to try to alleviate initial symptoms until proper understanding can be attained. You do not have any professional qualifications or skills and yet throw scorn on medical teams that try their best in circumstances where more and more people are becoming mentally unwell. I have worked on and off in these services for many years and truly believe in them. I find it disgraceful that unqualified people take matters into their own hands and claim medical teams do not do their duty. As part of a mental health medical team I try each and every day to do the best I can and yes I am qualified to make judgements and opinions. I am also continually assessed to ensure I am working in the correct way. You have no idea that if we make mistakes we are heavily dealt with by our managers and commissioners. I take personal insult with your attitude to services that for the majority work. I have seen and helped plenty of people come out of mental illness to manage to have successful lives. Please think before you speak because you do not have the knowledge to make such accusations. I feel absolutely insulted by your comments considering how hard I work and the efforts I make to have solid dialogue with patients based on reciprocity.

The knowledge I have is life's experiences within my circle of people where the system has failed them. Where they ended up being sent home with medication that may or may not help them - let's go through a barrage of different medications to see if we are lucky enough to hit on the right one or right combination (continuing trial and error)....where my friend is at right now and has been for the last 30 years. You should be more concerned in researching methods to improve the system which fails so many ill people, instead of feeling complacent in a system that directs it's procedures depending upon budgetary concerns.

Also, my brother had a psychiatric team tend to his needs, after all was said and done, he committed suicide.

If you and your team have saved a few people, I commend you, but I was not insulting you, just your trial and error science.

And what of the elderly that sanely and wisely (in who's opinion? theirs!) want to opt out of life for they own reasons, what do your books say about that?

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/188/5/405.full

"The acknowledgement of mental suffering as a valid ground for euthanasia, as established explicitly in Belgian law, is unique. With respect to both medical and ethical issues, the debate about the legitimacy of these grounds persists."

"Another important argument concentrates on the ambiguous notion of mental illness itself. If patients suffer in their environment and develop a mental disorder, it is difficult to ascertain whether the mental disorder and suffering are solely a natural reaction to an intolerable and/or hostile environment, or whether genuine mental disorder has ensued. Historical examples are the high numbers of suicide in unmarried mothers and gay men (once considered to be mentally ill) in social environments where they were not accepted. Thus, the term ‘mental suffering stemming from mental disorder’ is vague and hard to define, and the potential for abuse is serious. A final but recurring theme in the literature is a fear of gradual social acceptance of the practice of euthanasia, which might lead to a less careful decision-making process and to dealing less adequately with suicidal ideation and behaviour (van der Maas et al, 1996; Hamilton & Hamilton, 2000; Onwuteaka-Philipsen et al, 2003)."

I am sorry to hear about your brother as I am with all people who commit suicides. including my own father. I have had mental health sufferers that I worked with end their own lives. This has an impact on my own well-being too.
I am afraid I cannot research medication as this is not my department. I work on the front line services and yes you are right; medicine is trial and error but we should be thankful that these systems and medications are in place, available and continually improved and assessed. I don't create the medicine. I try to help to identify which medicine works best as I do with environment and family issues. I would rather focus on the successes that I have experienced and try to understand if and where we go wrong and how we can improve. We take failure personally - you can be sure of that.
There are many reasons some people suffer years of ill mental health but it is not simply the fault of the medical systems. We try everything we can that is presently available to help people and we do it it in a dignified and caring manner and on a budget that is barely sufficient. If you are looking to blame someone try the politicians and medical commissioners who refuse to give us more money to help more people. Having said that mental health care has come a long way in a short space of time. I try to be positive and look to the future.
Not everyone can be helped but you cannot blame it solely on the mental health services. There are a variety of reasons why people suffer ill mental health. Number one on that list is drug abuse. Sometimes people won't take our advice and become involved in one to one and group therapy, which I believe helps a great deal. Environment plays a massive part in ill mental health and we do our very best to aid people with ill mental health move to areas and into work that aids their recovery. Living in London gay people are treated as equals and we have zero tolerance when it comes to these matters as we have with racism.
I refuse to talk about euthanasia as this has nothing to do with the services I work at and at present is illegal in my country. I cannot comment on something I know little about.

I can see by your coat my friend you're from the other side. Just one thing I got to know. Who won?
12-10-2014, 12:25 AM #45
UniqueStranger Art in my heart
Posts:14,898 Threads:420 Joined:Jun 2012
I don't dismiss seeking psychiatric help entirely, as I believe it can help some people some of the time, along with proper medication. My brother chose to leave this world, even when his mental issues were controlled and he was not self-medicating with drugs - while in a closed ward. There was something else wrong there, something unaddressed, undiagnosed...but I don't blame his psychiatric team, nor doctors, nor any of us that desperately tried to help him. It seemed that he just didn't want to remain here. So, perhaps there is so much more to helping someone other than fixing a hurt child (psychologically-speaking), perhaps our society makes life so difficult and intolerable for some people that they can see no light at the end of the tunnel, because for many there is no light at the end of the tunnel.



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